The noble determination of the Pure Left™️ to proudly achieve nothing at all while condemning those on the left who actively fight to advance to the goal always makes me think of what we used to say to their ilk back in the ‘60s—“Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way”.
I think if NYC-DSA grows big enough it'll be able to get to that point of running its own ballot line similar to the WFP (which has its own issues) but right now what's working is winning these electoral contests because it draws in a lot of new energy and members and gives organizers (and the people in general) a way to build some tactical muscle by focusing on a collective project that has actual consequences for the political economy. People don't just want to go protests and book clubs all week! Labor and tenants unionizing are another form of this.
The point is it's an organizational means to an end. I don't know why people who are typically so skeptical of American electoral politics anyway seem to think that electeds are the entire point here. They just love to ignore and diminish the collective effort that goes into this stuff. I find objections to this strategy are entirely symbolic (and vain), not tactical.
No revolution is going to happen, especially in a country like the US with its long history of quasi-liberal democracy, without a profound inciting event, like a climate-related economic catastrophe. Until that point, we need to be building organizational might so we're ready to mobilize people when the time comes.
Preach! I cannot stress enough, "People don't just want to go to protests and book clubs all week!" If we don't give them a means to better their lives, they'll find somebody else who will.
You believe in preserving the capitalist system and reforming and regulating it to make it more fair and just. This cannot be done, not without exploiting the hell out of other people overseas, the loss of which is collapsing the European Social Democracy you wish to emulate right now.
No, the DSA is a tool to attract progressive causes into the Democratic Party machine where they can be safely processed, commodified, marketed, and forgotten.
I, OTOH, believe a real revolution is necessary in order to replace the capitalist system, which has failed for most of us, with something better. I do not believe the words you are thinking, which are that I'm being naive--or worse--for even thinking any other system could be a "realistic" improvement over capitalism, or that I'm immoral for acknowledging that no progressive change has ever happened without violence or the threat of violence.
No, Joe. We cannot get out of this mess by elections alone. That is as certain as the sun usually rising in the east. Your strategy is designed to fail, just like Bernie Sanders failed. That's why the Democratic establishment tolerates you.
Many self-proclaimed leftists claim that they want the working class to democratically control the workplace and the society, but many of them can picture themselves only in managerial committees that themselves decide how the workplace and the society should be run. Elitism is an old scourge in “leftist” circles. So, if I may say, you should not be surprised by how someone thinks so little of the working class while they also appear to think that the working class can control their workplace. They do not actually believe so.
“Please find me one DSA member who was inspired to become a card-carrying socialist through Bernie Sanders’s presidential campaigns, who feels “betrayed” by Zohran Mamdani’s mayoralty?”
“Their insistence that DSA commit political suicide by abandoning any association with the Democrats reminds me of how Lenin chastized the German and Dutch left communists for refusing parliamentary participation, which they considered “obsolete.”
There is a huge difference between refusing to engage in electoral politics entirely and refusing to work within the Democratic Party which is fundamentally a pro-capitalist party.
Please direct me to one left-wing American party that has effectively engaged in electoral politics without engaging with the Democrats? As reality shows, the sad truth is that the duopoly encompasses the entire electoral realm. That's why it's called a duopoly.
I’m a member of Socialist Alternative and I think the 10 year run in Seattle City Council with Kshama Sawant as the sole socialist in a sea of “progressive” and “labor” Democrats is a fantastic example of the potential efficacy of working outside of the Democratic Party.
I don’t think that we made zero mistakes in that decade, but I still stand by that work as incredibly inspiring and valuable.
I have my own issues with Kshama, especially how she handled leaving SAlt and her decisions since then, and am always down to hear out any critiques of SAlt.
I’m still a supporter of DSA and genuinely want it to succeed, which is why I enjoy reading your work and engaging with it, whether I agree or disagree.
I really appreciate both you and Left Voice for uplifting comradely debate, we need more of that. I want a new political party that includes DSA, Left Voice, SAlt, and every other left-leaning grouping, as well as every union, where we can genuinely build something by and for the working class. I see DSA as having the potential for being a huge positive force in building and running that new party.
The noble determination of the Pure Left™️ to proudly achieve nothing at all while condemning those on the left who actively fight to advance to the goal always makes me think of what we used to say to their ilk back in the ‘60s—“Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way”.
I think if NYC-DSA grows big enough it'll be able to get to that point of running its own ballot line similar to the WFP (which has its own issues) but right now what's working is winning these electoral contests because it draws in a lot of new energy and members and gives organizers (and the people in general) a way to build some tactical muscle by focusing on a collective project that has actual consequences for the political economy. People don't just want to go protests and book clubs all week! Labor and tenants unionizing are another form of this.
The point is it's an organizational means to an end. I don't know why people who are typically so skeptical of American electoral politics anyway seem to think that electeds are the entire point here. They just love to ignore and diminish the collective effort that goes into this stuff. I find objections to this strategy are entirely symbolic (and vain), not tactical.
No revolution is going to happen, especially in a country like the US with its long history of quasi-liberal democracy, without a profound inciting event, like a climate-related economic catastrophe. Until that point, we need to be building organizational might so we're ready to mobilize people when the time comes.
Preach! I cannot stress enough, "People don't just want to go to protests and book clubs all week!" If we don't give them a means to better their lives, they'll find somebody else who will.
You believe in preserving the capitalist system and reforming and regulating it to make it more fair and just. This cannot be done, not without exploiting the hell out of other people overseas, the loss of which is collapsing the European Social Democracy you wish to emulate right now.
No, the DSA is a tool to attract progressive causes into the Democratic Party machine where they can be safely processed, commodified, marketed, and forgotten.
I, OTOH, believe a real revolution is necessary in order to replace the capitalist system, which has failed for most of us, with something better. I do not believe the words you are thinking, which are that I'm being naive--or worse--for even thinking any other system could be a "realistic" improvement over capitalism, or that I'm immoral for acknowledging that no progressive change has ever happened without violence or the threat of violence.
No, Joe. We cannot get out of this mess by elections alone. That is as certain as the sun usually rising in the east. Your strategy is designed to fail, just like Bernie Sanders failed. That's why the Democratic establishment tolerates you.
You clearly didn't read what I wrote.
Many self-proclaimed leftists claim that they want the working class to democratically control the workplace and the society, but many of them can picture themselves only in managerial committees that themselves decide how the workplace and the society should be run. Elitism is an old scourge in “leftist” circles. So, if I may say, you should not be surprised by how someone thinks so little of the working class while they also appear to think that the working class can control their workplace. They do not actually believe so.
Joke Scrote what id like to make clear to you is that socialism is about reason
and you have none
receipts —
you said “all of mma is right wing and i dont know how anyone can’t see that”
😂😂😂
please understand that you have the reasoning power of a liberal
bc ur a liberal
“Please find me one DSA member who was inspired to become a card-carrying socialist through Bernie Sanders’s presidential campaigns, who feels “betrayed” by Zohran Mamdani’s mayoralty?”
Hi yes this is me 👋
“Their insistence that DSA commit political suicide by abandoning any association with the Democrats reminds me of how Lenin chastized the German and Dutch left communists for refusing parliamentary participation, which they considered “obsolete.”
There is a huge difference between refusing to engage in electoral politics entirely and refusing to work within the Democratic Party which is fundamentally a pro-capitalist party.
Please direct me to one left-wing American party that has effectively engaged in electoral politics without engaging with the Democrats? As reality shows, the sad truth is that the duopoly encompasses the entire electoral realm. That's why it's called a duopoly.
I’m a member of Socialist Alternative and I think the 10 year run in Seattle City Council with Kshama Sawant as the sole socialist in a sea of “progressive” and “labor” Democrats is a fantastic example of the potential efficacy of working outside of the Democratic Party.
I don’t think that we made zero mistakes in that decade, but I still stand by that work as incredibly inspiring and valuable.
You should check out Jonathan Rosenblum’s book that covers our tenure in that office https://orbooks.com/catalog/we-re-coming-for-you-and-your-rotten-system/
I have my own issues with Kshama, especially how she handled leaving SAlt and her decisions since then, and am always down to hear out any critiques of SAlt.
I’m still a supporter of DSA and genuinely want it to succeed, which is why I enjoy reading your work and engaging with it, whether I agree or disagree.
I really appreciate both you and Left Voice for uplifting comradely debate, we need more of that. I want a new political party that includes DSA, Left Voice, SAlt, and every other left-leaning grouping, as well as every union, where we can genuinely build something by and for the working class. I see DSA as having the potential for being a huge positive force in building and running that new party.