On a warm summer evening after dinner on a Kibbutz, I had a conversation with a couple of Israeli soldiers who, thinking I was one of them, laughed and joked about killing pregnant mothers: “Two for one!” One of them said, laughing. One bullet, they meant.
I don’t need lessons in whether it’s a genocide or not. I was there. I saw and heard the most vile racist things from seemingly kind, gentle, Zionist farmers and workers. That was in 1968, and as we all can see it’s gotten far worse since.
‘Mass hypnosis’ is closer to the truth than ‘social movement’. I don’t believe there is any chance for this culture of racism and hatred to reform itself. It will have to come from outside.
(By the way, Phillip Sands debating Ezra Klein is like Hulk Hogan wrestling with Mr. Rodgers.)
Wow, that's a heartbreaking story. Thanks for sharing. This is why I don't think we can simply stop this instance of violence. The hatred and racism are too ingrained in the national psyche. If we don't solve that, then there will never be peace.
I respond by saying that the murder of 1000 people was an atrocity. And the callous, indiscriminate killing of 50,000 Gazans is an atrocity times 50.
I also note that the highest levels of the Israeli government had been warned specifically about the likelihood and nature of the planned attack and did nothing to forestall it.
Which is all stuff Klein knows. I find him so disingenuous because he knows a lot about Israel-Palestine. Feigning ignorance of the clear declarations by the Israeli state is pretty obvious.
I've noticed they want multiple sources for your most basic explanations or even just quotes of their own positions. Yet if I comment they don't bring anything but bullshit mansplaining about how I just can't understand how complicating being selfish fuckwits in order to stay on.the side of justice. Lol, not justice, the side with more money. Not even novel at all. Sigh.
I've noticed the same, which is why I cite everything I can. It takes extra time, but I think it helps avoid some of the more of the distracting comments.
I hate the fact that there is no answer here. I agree 100% that the annihilation of indigenous people here in America is no different. And we have no right to point fingers at others as a result of that. But when will this all end.
Hang on, is Tareq Baconi the H*m*s apologist he’s referring to? Because Baconi certainly schooled Klein in that interview with facts. In fact, I couldn’t believe how uninformed Klein came across as.
“Klein uses the voice of a realist to argue that Palestinians should give up on their communal claim, as if a natural phenomenon was preventing Palestinian return.”
Any time anyone claims to be the sole owner or inhabitant of reality, it a massive red flag for me as what they are trying to do is dishonestly assert their subjective view as objective truth.
“When did the statute of limitations on Jewish expulsion run out?”
I’ll accept this argument only after American Zionists have started calling for the United States to be removed and the land to be returned to the management of the native Americans. That statute of limitations is roughly 1800 years more valid than that of Israel, even if we overlook the whole DNA issue.
“the targeting of what looks like civilian infrastructure is necessary because Hamas hides among civilians and inside civilian infrastructure.”
Then presumably the targeting of Israeli civilian architecture is necessary for the Palestinians, since every Israeli adult is a military reservist. Is it a war or a genocide? If it’s a war then the other side are allowed to fight back. Even if putting aside (again) the extreme dubiousness of the claims that hospitals and schools are Hamas basis and the lack of credible evidence in support of these claims; and also disregarding Israel’s openness about siting its military facilities in civilian neighbourhoods.
As you observe, Joe, Klein must be aware he is lying. This should also affect our interpretation of his other words, including abundance.
Difficult to read, but beautifully written. Incredible how supposedly "caring" people will twist themselves into absolute knots to defend the mass murder of an entire population. I hope they are all extremely shamed when the world wakes up to this atrocity.
Great piece. Very well written. I might have read it wrong, but it almost read as if you were conflating Judaism with an ethnicity? It's not. It's a religion. Israel isn't protecting one ethnicity over another. It's protecting a religion over another. Zionist propaganda intentionally conflates ethnicity and religion in order to make their genocidal intent more palatable. That being said, I enjoy your work. Keep it up!
Sometimes Israel apologists need Judaism to be a religion. Sometimes they need it to be an ethnicity. Sometimes they need it to be a culture.
They’ll pick and choose which club to weld as the need arises.
I’ve had some say “Israel has a unique RELIGIOUS claim to land”, and then at other times say Ashkenazi are the displaced indigenous ETHNICITY.
And of course, there is always the conflation of Israeli with Zionist with Jew in order to call you an antisemite, to delegitimize criticism of decades of ethnic cleansing and now genocide.
FWIW: I always do my best to distinguish Israel, Zionist, and Jew. I always try to make the point that the tenets of Judaism are quite good, and do not justify either the ethnic cleansing or genocide.
I agree with you. Like I said, I may have misread the context around "protecting an ethnicity." That is certainly what Israel (and by extension Ezra) would claim to be doing. Even if it's just factually wrong. It's a gross conflation that should be called out for what it is: indoctrination.
And as always: prior to political Zionism, there WAS a small, but real population of practicing Jews in Palestine. They spoke Arabic. They were well integrated into society.
And they for the most part wanted nothing to do with the mostly non-practicing Ashkenazi when they came from Europe.
The Ottoman Empire, and Muslims in Palestine, had given shelter to Jews in Palestine, especially Sephardic Jews. For hundreds of years.
It would have been a terrible betrayal if these indigenous Jews had turned on their Muslim friends and neighbors when the Ashkenazi came.
The only court with the authority to adjudicate international law is the International Court of Justice. It ruled on the right of Palestinian return last July.
'The ICJ mandated Israel to end its occupation, dismantle its settlements, provide full reparations to Palestinian victims and facilitate the return of displaced people.'
And who's going to *enforce* that ruling Joe? Who grants that jurisdiction? International "law" is a farce. It's a group of norms, agreements, and treaties without any muscle outside of the U.S. One of us definitely doesn't know what they're talking about, and it ain't me.
"The jurisdiction of the Court in contentious proceedings is based on the consent of the States to which it is open... A list of treaties and conventions governing the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice in contentious cases is given in the “Treaties” section."
You asked if he was familiar with courts, then when confronted with the fact that the relevant court is adjudicating this question in favor of Palestine, your objection is that court has no ability to enforce the ruling. This is pretty bad sophistry, sorry.
Yeah, I get that it comes across that way, and I apologize; the structure was ill-fitting for my intent. My point was that the concept of "law" is that it is **fundamentally** debated, written, applied, interpreted, adjudicated, amended, and repealed, *and* that without a mechanism of enforcement, it ceases to be "law" whatsoever, in both the practical and philosophical senses. The invocation of the ICJ admittedly set me off, because—just like "human rights"—the concept is a post-WWII fever dream that Leftists try to wield like some kind of divine proclamation, rather than acknowledge what it really is: a loose set of agreed-upon values with absolutely no power over nations, save that which the nations themselves lend it, either through consent or through enforcement by powerful members.
On a warm summer evening after dinner on a Kibbutz, I had a conversation with a couple of Israeli soldiers who, thinking I was one of them, laughed and joked about killing pregnant mothers: “Two for one!” One of them said, laughing. One bullet, they meant.
I don’t need lessons in whether it’s a genocide or not. I was there. I saw and heard the most vile racist things from seemingly kind, gentle, Zionist farmers and workers. That was in 1968, and as we all can see it’s gotten far worse since.
‘Mass hypnosis’ is closer to the truth than ‘social movement’. I don’t believe there is any chance for this culture of racism and hatred to reform itself. It will have to come from outside.
(By the way, Phillip Sands debating Ezra Klein is like Hulk Hogan wrestling with Mr. Rodgers.)
Wow, that's a heartbreaking story. Thanks for sharing. This is why I don't think we can simply stop this instance of violence. The hatred and racism are too ingrained in the national psyche. If we don't solve that, then there will never be peace.
Jesus Christ
"How do you respond to October 7?"
I respond by saying that the murder of 1000 people was an atrocity. And the callous, indiscriminate killing of 50,000 Gazans is an atrocity times 50.
I also note that the highest levels of the Israeli government had been warned specifically about the likelihood and nature of the planned attack and did nothing to forestall it.
Which is all stuff Klein knows. I find him so disingenuous because he knows a lot about Israel-Palestine. Feigning ignorance of the clear declarations by the Israeli state is pretty obvious.
Badass article
🫡
Nicely done, excellent footnotes!
Thanks Rachel!
I've noticed they want multiple sources for your most basic explanations or even just quotes of their own positions. Yet if I comment they don't bring anything but bullshit mansplaining about how I just can't understand how complicating being selfish fuckwits in order to stay on.the side of justice. Lol, not justice, the side with more money. Not even novel at all. Sigh.
I've noticed the same, which is why I cite everything I can. It takes extra time, but I think it helps avoid some of the more of the distracting comments.
I hate the fact that there is no answer here. I agree 100% that the annihilation of indigenous people here in America is no different. And we have no right to point fingers at others as a result of that. But when will this all end.
America is no different from Israel. It also should not exist. Over 100 million indigenous people were slaughtered.
You're correct, but short of a time machine, how would we ever get that genie back in the bottle?
Giving the land back.
There are mechanisms under international law. Giving the land back is one. Compensation is another.
Not doing either is not acceptable.
Hang on, is Tareq Baconi the H*m*s apologist he’s referring to? Because Baconi certainly schooled Klein in that interview with facts. In fact, I couldn’t believe how uninformed Klein came across as.
Stay on his neck
I am perpetually bemused by your belief that International Law is a Real Thing that Actually Matters.
Great article, it just roused my inner miserable cynic.
Yeah. Fully agree.
“Klein uses the voice of a realist to argue that Palestinians should give up on their communal claim, as if a natural phenomenon was preventing Palestinian return.”
Any time anyone claims to be the sole owner or inhabitant of reality, it a massive red flag for me as what they are trying to do is dishonestly assert their subjective view as objective truth.
“When did the statute of limitations on Jewish expulsion run out?”
I’ll accept this argument only after American Zionists have started calling for the United States to be removed and the land to be returned to the management of the native Americans. That statute of limitations is roughly 1800 years more valid than that of Israel, even if we overlook the whole DNA issue.
“the targeting of what looks like civilian infrastructure is necessary because Hamas hides among civilians and inside civilian infrastructure.”
Then presumably the targeting of Israeli civilian architecture is necessary for the Palestinians, since every Israeli adult is a military reservist. Is it a war or a genocide? If it’s a war then the other side are allowed to fight back. Even if putting aside (again) the extreme dubiousness of the claims that hospitals and schools are Hamas basis and the lack of credible evidence in support of these claims; and also disregarding Israel’s openness about siting its military facilities in civilian neighbourhoods.
As you observe, Joe, Klein must be aware he is lying. This should also affect our interpretation of his other words, including abundance.
Difficult to read, but beautifully written. Incredible how supposedly "caring" people will twist themselves into absolute knots to defend the mass murder of an entire population. I hope they are all extremely shamed when the world wakes up to this atrocity.
Great piece. Very well written. I might have read it wrong, but it almost read as if you were conflating Judaism with an ethnicity? It's not. It's a religion. Israel isn't protecting one ethnicity over another. It's protecting a religion over another. Zionist propaganda intentionally conflates ethnicity and religion in order to make their genocidal intent more palatable. That being said, I enjoy your work. Keep it up!
Let’s discuss that.
We are engaged with some bad faith arguments.
Sometimes Israel apologists need Judaism to be a religion. Sometimes they need it to be an ethnicity. Sometimes they need it to be a culture.
They’ll pick and choose which club to weld as the need arises.
I’ve had some say “Israel has a unique RELIGIOUS claim to land”, and then at other times say Ashkenazi are the displaced indigenous ETHNICITY.
And of course, there is always the conflation of Israeli with Zionist with Jew in order to call you an antisemite, to delegitimize criticism of decades of ethnic cleansing and now genocide.
FWIW: I always do my best to distinguish Israel, Zionist, and Jew. I always try to make the point that the tenets of Judaism are quite good, and do not justify either the ethnic cleansing or genocide.
I agree with you. Like I said, I may have misread the context around "protecting an ethnicity." That is certainly what Israel (and by extension Ezra) would claim to be doing. Even if it's just factually wrong. It's a gross conflation that should be called out for what it is: indoctrination.
Strong agree.
And as always: prior to political Zionism, there WAS a small, but real population of practicing Jews in Palestine. They spoke Arabic. They were well integrated into society.
And they for the most part wanted nothing to do with the mostly non-practicing Ashkenazi when they came from Europe.
The Ottoman Empire, and Muslims in Palestine, had given shelter to Jews in Palestine, especially Sephardic Jews. For hundreds of years.
It would have been a terrible betrayal if these indigenous Jews had turned on their Muslim friends and neighbors when the Ashkenazi came.
It's not. It's a religion. Israel isn't protecting one ethnicity over another. It's protecting a religion over another.
Demonstrably false. 1) Right of Return and 2) Nation State law:
Any person who is Jewish — defined as someone:
Born to a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism (recognized conversion, usually Orthodox, sometimes Conservative or Reform depending on the case)
And not practicing another religion
Spouse or child or grandchild of a Jew.
This includes children and grandchildren, and their spouses, even if they themselves are not Jewish according to religious law.
So it’s a mix of everything and religion sometimes is at the top and sometimes nowhere to be found.
"It is established law and not up for debate."
This is so stupid. Extant laws and their application and enforcement are debated every single day, all over the world. Are you familiar with courts?
The only court with the authority to adjudicate international law is the International Court of Justice. It ruled on the right of Palestinian return last July.
'The ICJ mandated Israel to end its occupation, dismantle its settlements, provide full reparations to Palestinian victims and facilitate the return of displaced people.'
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/experts-hail-icj-declaration-illegality-israels-presence-occupied
If you're going to be rude, you should probably know what you're talking about.
And who's going to *enforce* that ruling Joe? Who grants that jurisdiction? International "law" is a farce. It's a group of norms, agreements, and treaties without any muscle outside of the U.S. One of us definitely doesn't know what they're talking about, and it ain't me.
"The jurisdiction of the Court in contentious proceedings is based on the consent of the States to which it is open... A list of treaties and conventions governing the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice in contentious cases is given in the “Treaties” section."
https://icj-cij.org/basis-of-jurisdiction
You asked if he was familiar with courts, then when confronted with the fact that the relevant court is adjudicating this question in favor of Palestine, your objection is that court has no ability to enforce the ruling. This is pretty bad sophistry, sorry.
Yeah, I get that it comes across that way, and I apologize; the structure was ill-fitting for my intent. My point was that the concept of "law" is that it is **fundamentally** debated, written, applied, interpreted, adjudicated, amended, and repealed, *and* that without a mechanism of enforcement, it ceases to be "law" whatsoever, in both the practical and philosophical senses. The invocation of the ICJ admittedly set me off, because—just like "human rights"—the concept is a post-WWII fever dream that Leftists try to wield like some kind of divine proclamation, rather than acknowledge what it really is: a loose set of agreed-upon values with absolutely no power over nations, save that which the nations themselves lend it, either through consent or through enforcement by powerful members.
"ICJ judges have broad powers to order a cease-fire and other measures, though the court doesn’t have its own enforcement apparatus."
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/watch-israel-makes-appearance-in-icj-responding-to-new-complaint-over-possible-attack-on-rafah