Another articulate post, Joe. I have to add my two cents, as I always do.
First and foremost, what does the United States gain from its alliance with Israel? Particularly at this point in history? They suck billions of dollars in aid from us and what do we get in return? Stability in the Middle East? Oil? The upcoming return of Revenge Jesus so that Christians can be Raptured?
Second, Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel want a theocracy. They're as bad as any Islamic fundamentalists. They separate women from men (women have been attacked for worshiping at the Western Wall). Men have asked to be moved when traveling on planes and buses if seated next to women they don't know. They want to decide who is really a Jew (there have been instances of discrimination and rejection of resettlement for "half-Jews" rejecting millennia of rabbinic thought and law). They are subsidized by the government so they don't have to work to "study Torah" and they don't serve in the military to defend their country. They are, in a word, parasites. (Ah, but they are religious so that excuses everything /s).
Third, Netanyahu makes American leadership look like losers and chumps. All US military aid would be conditional (based on OUR OWN LAWS). I can't wait for Bibi to lose control of the government and finally stand trial for his corruption.
Lastly, when will America stop supporting tyrants, authoritarian regimes, fascists, military juntas, and strongman leaders and actually put our supposedly great system of democratic ideals into action both here and abroad. Did we bring democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan? Vietnam? South Korea? Did we kill leaders in Chile?
Let's walk the walk and not just talk. Biden's foreign policy is for shit and spying on "pro-Palestinian supporters" as agents of Iran is just the icing on the cake. Maybe I'm just an angry contrarian, but clarity is necessary and all I see is muddy water.
Amen, David! You hit on an excellent point — what does America get from supporting Israel?
First, I'd have to say anti-semitism was very high around the mid-19th century. Truman famously supported creating Israel because he didn't want Jewish refugees coming to America. So there is that.
Second, I think the American military complex likes Israel as a "permanent aircraft carrier" to station troops and weapons in the ME. Supposedly, that will "increase stability," but we've seen where that thinking takes us — here. And it's not stable.
As the saying goes, you can't bomb your way to peace.
We have bases pretty much everywhere, but I think the special nature of Israel is that it is permanent. Countries can evict us from our bases, or relations can break down. Israel's dominance is tied to the US, so they essentially act as another branch of our military.
I can give a long list of what “America” gains - but I think that we must do away with our old-fashioned ideas about democracy, citizenship, and who our leaders are - especially in relation to the population of people who happens to live in the United States.
Furthermore, one must stop believing that there is air between the state of Israel and the other 50 US states.
In the 1980s/1990s, our “leaders” set forth the document that defines our global policy in regard to hard power called “Rebuilding America’s Defences.” That document, plus all the other PNAC documents comprised a manifesto for a permanent unipolar hegemony led by the US and its clients. The ghouls who wrote this document are still deeply embedded and are firmly in control of the levers of US military and economic policy.
Likewise, the post war period brought the rise and entrenchment of Hayek and Friedman as the sole US arbiter of global economic policy; we no longer discuss neoliberalism - as if neoliberalism is the same as capitalism and unfettered neoliberal capitalism is the only economic system that has ever been or ever can be.
Neoliberalism and Neo-conservatism are the blunt instrument of US unipolar hegemony. Endless war and the wholesale slaughter of peasants is the ultimate demonstration to any global citizens who dare to resist. Under the cover of this chaos democracy (a problem succinctly described in the PNAC papers) is being undone on a global scale. The UN is being gutted as well as all international courts of justice. The oligarchic class is gaining control of all economic means, impoverishing the rabble and demolishing the leisure time necessary to participate in society and politics.
As usual, Israel serves its role as a laboratory of social control and weapons testing, and the warlords are all richly rewarded.
With the rise of Brics and global objection to US hegemony the few and the powerful see an existential threat; WW3 is their solution.
But what do I know? I’m just a midwestern working class mom with a bachelors in liberal arts.
Israel serves as a proxy state of the American Empire to advance its interests in the Middle East.
Plus, Christian Zionism is a powerful force in evangelical Christianity, which is itself a powerful cultural force in the US. And the Israel Lobby gives money to advance its interests like other lobbies, including the Saudi Lobby.
Excellent! I agree with every word. Our western governments have lost whatever moral standing they had because of their support for genocide. BTW, I’m a devout, left-wing Catholic (we do exist!), and I agree with you about theocracies. My Church has done great harm when it lost its way and allied with empire. And the U.S. is headed in that direction, as well as allying with the most wicked theocracy I have ever seen.
Left wing Catholicism is great! I was raised Catholic, and looking back on it, I don't know how anyone can follow Catholic doctrine (at least what I was taught) and not be a leftist. Somehow, people like JD Vance found a way!
Excellent article! 💯% Thanks for speaking the truth when so many are spreading propaganda. Ignore the haters they’re just trying to get under your skin. Great article well written.😊I’ve been struggling with this exact difficult issue of realizing that we are NOT the “good guys” here. There is no just cause we’re fighting for- just Israel’s “right “ to keep slaughtering children in Gaza while they continue to openly steal Palestinian land…
Thanks Sadie! I appreciate your kind words. I think your struggle is shared along a lot of people (which is why I wanted to write this). We don't have to love (or even like) the Islamist or secular groups fighting Israel. But it's important to start from a baseline truth that they are the ones following international law, while America is outside it.
If we don't start with this fact, then any conclusion we draw will be inaccurate.
"As a secularist, I have no love for any theocratic project....However, my despisal of theocracy does not blind me to reality. While the United States, Germany, the United Kingdom, and other ostensibly secular Western nations enable Israel’s genocide of Palestine and its invasion of Lebanon, it is the Islamist groups (as well as South Africa) that are abiding by international law. Their counterattacks, both legal and judicial, on Israel’s transgressions are a manifestation of states’ duty to prevent genocide, a duty the United States pledged but will never fairly enforce."
This, right here. You don't have to like the Islamic Fundamentalists in Iran or elsewhere, but they are standing up against genocide.
It's ironic Americans don't understand this, as it's the exact strategy we used to defeat Germany in WWII. I remember a quote from FDR when he was criticized for sending guns to the USSR, monarchists, and other groups: "If the Devil himself were fighting Hitler, I would arm him."
You left Hindu out of that fascist, religio-ethno-supremacist mix. But, since they aren't directly involved in the current mash up in West Asia, all is forgiven. It is interesting, looking at much of what passes for public discourse, how facts never seem to get in the way of a longstanding opinion. What we see in the "west" is a clinging to the coattails of the Emperor's new clothes, and it's a mighty tenuous grip, indeed.
Let us hope we get out of this so that there are future generations, and that they only read about such things in history books. In fact, it's likely that if we don't find a way to put war and tribal hatreds behind us, we, as a species, will not live to fight, or breathe, another day.
I’m personally loathe to cite International Law as a reason to do or not do anything because
1. It’s transparently toothless and has been for longer than I’ve been alive
2. Arguments Citing “International Law” are usually fundamentally moral in character and conflating “International Law” with “Morality” strengthens pernicious institutions like “copyright treaties” and “the UN Security Council”
I don't inherently disagree, but I do think the post-WWII laws are an effective measuring stick. For example, pointing out how Israel has violated the anti-genocide convention while Iran is upholding it is a good way to cut through American propaganda and show people the reality, in my opinion. But I agree it can often be used maliciously.
Get the fuck outta here with your nonsense. The other side is an Islamist religio-facist death cult. You pro gender apartheid these days? What the fuck is wrong with you?
The answer is Iran, Sudan, Syria, Hezbollah, the IGRC, ISIS, the Mahdi, Ansar al-Islam, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Jaamat al-Islam, Boko Haram, Hamas, PIJ, al-Shabab.
FYI, that is also the answer to "Who beats, jails, or kills women for showing hair "; "who hangs gays from cranes"; "who has legalized marriage rape and rape of non-muslims"; and "who has legalized African slavery"?
Sadly, it is also the answer to you saying: "whose side am I on."
You should be fucking ashamed. You seek to condemn Palestinians and other non-white people to a life you would never accept for little white you.
What a racist asshole you are.
Free Palestine from Hamas and ignorant racist asshole poseurs like you.
You cleverly avoided answering David’s question: who throws stones at women who worship at the Western Wall? Who spits at Christian worshippers in the Old City?
Ssshhh.. let them steep, stew, rant, and brood. We live rent free in their inconsequential impotent little heads, and I enjoy their rants. We're a nation with megatonnage on tap, and we'll do what we like.
Hilarious. Like you know anything about Israel or Israeli politics. LOL. You morons just spout labels and slogans because you don't know any facts.. Y'all are the worst kind of ignoramuses -- the arrogant kind.
OK poseur. Not googling.
You say the Israeli government is fascist (like you even know what the word actually means), then go ahead genius:
* Tell me which parties make up the current Israeli government and their political platforms?
* Too hard? Just tell me the names of the parties?
* Too hard? just tell me the number of parties in the current Knesset. Not the names, just how many - 2? 5? 20?
* Too hard? How juat tell me how many seats there are in the Knesset.
See what i mean. I know, i know, facts are HAAARRRDDD.
Y'all are jokes. Your opinions are jokes. Y'all are all so pathetic.
Know that your ignorance kills. Not that you care or give two shits about Palestinians. You just want to virtue signal to your fake friends on the Internet. Look at me. Look at me!!!!!
Free Palestine from Hamas and ignorant asshole poseurs like you.
First, I find it utterly bizarre that you seem to think people need to know the inner workings of the Israeli government to have an opinion on it. Well then, do you know the inner workings of the Russian government? If not, why should we care about your opinion? Were you even aware there are other Palestinian groups besides Hamas? If not, why should we care about your opinion? Do you see why this is absurd?
Second, I find it interesting/hilarious that you're accusing the people who are against genocide of "not caring", meanwhile you're in favor of genocide.
Third: "Y'all are jokes. Your opinions are jokes. Y'all are all so pathetic. Know that your ignorance kills. Not that you care or give two shits about Palestinians. You just want to virtue signal to your fake friends on the Internet. Look at me. Look at me!!!!!"
Hilarious projection
Fourth: "Free Palestine from Hamas"
This is just cover for you to support killing everyone in Gaza and you know it.
Fifth: "I know, i know, facts are HAAARRRDDD."
Is that why you never present any? Or respond to any?
Secularism leads to an unhinged rules based order where the only law is 'might is right' and the ultimate outcome of such an order is death, destruction and chaos - usually intentional
Another articulate post, Joe. I have to add my two cents, as I always do.
First and foremost, what does the United States gain from its alliance with Israel? Particularly at this point in history? They suck billions of dollars in aid from us and what do we get in return? Stability in the Middle East? Oil? The upcoming return of Revenge Jesus so that Christians can be Raptured?
Second, Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel want a theocracy. They're as bad as any Islamic fundamentalists. They separate women from men (women have been attacked for worshiping at the Western Wall). Men have asked to be moved when traveling on planes and buses if seated next to women they don't know. They want to decide who is really a Jew (there have been instances of discrimination and rejection of resettlement for "half-Jews" rejecting millennia of rabbinic thought and law). They are subsidized by the government so they don't have to work to "study Torah" and they don't serve in the military to defend their country. They are, in a word, parasites. (Ah, but they are religious so that excuses everything /s).
Third, Netanyahu makes American leadership look like losers and chumps. All US military aid would be conditional (based on OUR OWN LAWS). I can't wait for Bibi to lose control of the government and finally stand trial for his corruption.
Lastly, when will America stop supporting tyrants, authoritarian regimes, fascists, military juntas, and strongman leaders and actually put our supposedly great system of democratic ideals into action both here and abroad. Did we bring democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan? Vietnam? South Korea? Did we kill leaders in Chile?
Let's walk the walk and not just talk. Biden's foreign policy is for shit and spying on "pro-Palestinian supporters" as agents of Iran is just the icing on the cake. Maybe I'm just an angry contrarian, but clarity is necessary and all I see is muddy water.
Amen, David! You hit on an excellent point — what does America get from supporting Israel?
First, I'd have to say anti-semitism was very high around the mid-19th century. Truman famously supported creating Israel because he didn't want Jewish refugees coming to America. So there is that.
Second, I think the American military complex likes Israel as a "permanent aircraft carrier" to station troops and weapons in the ME. Supposedly, that will "increase stability," but we've seen where that thinking takes us — here. And it's not stable.
As the saying goes, you can't bomb your way to peace.
Israel has done more to destabilize the region than any other nation (outside Russia and USA). But, you know, “escalate to deescalate.”
We have bases in Turkey, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait (I think) and two carrier groups in the area. Do we need Israel?
We have bases pretty much everywhere, but I think the special nature of Israel is that it is permanent. Countries can evict us from our bases, or relations can break down. Israel's dominance is tied to the US, so they essentially act as another branch of our military.
I understand. We've had bases in Saudi Arabia since the '70s. They're not going to kick us out (remember, we sell them as much armament as Israel).
Israel is an albatross around our necks. Time to cut them loose.
No. They're also a British colonial settlement. Birthed by genocide just like the US.
I can give a long list of what “America” gains - but I think that we must do away with our old-fashioned ideas about democracy, citizenship, and who our leaders are - especially in relation to the population of people who happens to live in the United States.
Furthermore, one must stop believing that there is air between the state of Israel and the other 50 US states.
In the 1980s/1990s, our “leaders” set forth the document that defines our global policy in regard to hard power called “Rebuilding America’s Defences.” That document, plus all the other PNAC documents comprised a manifesto for a permanent unipolar hegemony led by the US and its clients. The ghouls who wrote this document are still deeply embedded and are firmly in control of the levers of US military and economic policy.
Likewise, the post war period brought the rise and entrenchment of Hayek and Friedman as the sole US arbiter of global economic policy; we no longer discuss neoliberalism - as if neoliberalism is the same as capitalism and unfettered neoliberal capitalism is the only economic system that has ever been or ever can be.
Neoliberalism and Neo-conservatism are the blunt instrument of US unipolar hegemony. Endless war and the wholesale slaughter of peasants is the ultimate demonstration to any global citizens who dare to resist. Under the cover of this chaos democracy (a problem succinctly described in the PNAC papers) is being undone on a global scale. The UN is being gutted as well as all international courts of justice. The oligarchic class is gaining control of all economic means, impoverishing the rabble and demolishing the leisure time necessary to participate in society and politics.
As usual, Israel serves its role as a laboratory of social control and weapons testing, and the warlords are all richly rewarded.
With the rise of Brics and global objection to US hegemony the few and the powerful see an existential threat; WW3 is their solution.
But what do I know? I’m just a midwestern working class mom with a bachelors in liberal arts.
Israel serves as a proxy state of the American Empire to advance its interests in the Middle East.
Plus, Christian Zionism is a powerful force in evangelical Christianity, which is itself a powerful cultural force in the US. And the Israel Lobby gives money to advance its interests like other lobbies, including the Saudi Lobby.
This, too. A lot of religious voters want us to support Israel purely for their beliefs. Politicians won't buck that.
I’m pretty sure Israel has gone rogue on a number of occasions.
So has Saudi Arabia.
They still serve the American Empire.
https://youtu.be/2D-l1MauBmM?si=EAVcNSgFx7346ZV-
Excellent! I agree with every word. Our western governments have lost whatever moral standing they had because of their support for genocide. BTW, I’m a devout, left-wing Catholic (we do exist!), and I agree with you about theocracies. My Church has done great harm when it lost its way and allied with empire. And the U.S. is headed in that direction, as well as allying with the most wicked theocracy I have ever seen.
Left wing Catholicism is great! I was raised Catholic, and looking back on it, I don't know how anyone can follow Catholic doctrine (at least what I was taught) and not be a leftist. Somehow, people like JD Vance found a way!
Excellent article! 💯% Thanks for speaking the truth when so many are spreading propaganda. Ignore the haters they’re just trying to get under your skin. Great article well written.😊I’ve been struggling with this exact difficult issue of realizing that we are NOT the “good guys” here. There is no just cause we’re fighting for- just Israel’s “right “ to keep slaughtering children in Gaza while they continue to openly steal Palestinian land…
Thanks Sadie! I appreciate your kind words. I think your struggle is shared along a lot of people (which is why I wanted to write this). We don't have to love (or even like) the Islamist or secular groups fighting Israel. But it's important to start from a baseline truth that they are the ones following international law, while America is outside it.
If we don't start with this fact, then any conclusion we draw will be inaccurate.
"As a secularist, I have no love for any theocratic project....However, my despisal of theocracy does not blind me to reality. While the United States, Germany, the United Kingdom, and other ostensibly secular Western nations enable Israel’s genocide of Palestine and its invasion of Lebanon, it is the Islamist groups (as well as South Africa) that are abiding by international law. Their counterattacks, both legal and judicial, on Israel’s transgressions are a manifestation of states’ duty to prevent genocide, a duty the United States pledged but will never fairly enforce."
This, right here. You don't have to like the Islamic Fundamentalists in Iran or elsewhere, but they are standing up against genocide.
It's ironic Americans don't understand this, as it's the exact strategy we used to defeat Germany in WWII. I remember a quote from FDR when he was criticized for sending guns to the USSR, monarchists, and other groups: "If the Devil himself were fighting Hitler, I would arm him."
Thanks, Joe.
You left Hindu out of that fascist, religio-ethno-supremacist mix. But, since they aren't directly involved in the current mash up in West Asia, all is forgiven. It is interesting, looking at much of what passes for public discourse, how facts never seem to get in the way of a longstanding opinion. What we see in the "west" is a clinging to the coattails of the Emperor's new clothes, and it's a mighty tenuous grip, indeed.
Let us hope we get out of this so that there are future generations, and that they only read about such things in history books. In fact, it's likely that if we don't find a way to put war and tribal hatreds behind us, we, as a species, will not live to fight, or breathe, another day.
I’m personally loathe to cite International Law as a reason to do or not do anything because
1. It’s transparently toothless and has been for longer than I’ve been alive
2. Arguments Citing “International Law” are usually fundamentally moral in character and conflating “International Law” with “Morality” strengthens pernicious institutions like “copyright treaties” and “the UN Security Council”
I don't inherently disagree, but I do think the post-WWII laws are an effective measuring stick. For example, pointing out how Israel has violated the anti-genocide convention while Iran is upholding it is a good way to cut through American propaganda and show people the reality, in my opinion. But I agree it can often be used maliciously.
Get the fuck outta here with your nonsense. The other side is an Islamist religio-facist death cult. You pro gender apartheid these days? What the fuck is wrong with you?
Lol ‘religio-fascist death cult’ excuse me but who has massacred tens of thousands here?
It's always rich when Zionists overlook the millions they've killed and displaced and accuse others of being a "death cult."
Good question.
The answer is Iran, Sudan, Syria, Hezbollah, the IGRC, ISIS, the Mahdi, Ansar al-Islam, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Jaamat al-Islam, Boko Haram, Hamas, PIJ, al-Shabab.
FYI, that is also the answer to "Who beats, jails, or kills women for showing hair "; "who hangs gays from cranes"; "who has legalized marriage rape and rape of non-muslims"; and "who has legalized African slavery"?
Sadly, it is also the answer to you saying: "whose side am I on."
You should be fucking ashamed. You seek to condemn Palestinians and other non-white people to a life you would never accept for little white you.
What a racist asshole you are.
Free Palestine from Hamas and ignorant racist asshole poseurs like you.
Tell me who throws stones at women who worship at the Western Wall?
Tell me who won't sit next to an unaccompanied woman on the bus?
Tell me!
Troll
Well argued. Very persuasive.
Yes. Your one word response proves that i - not you - am a troll. LOL.
You cleverly avoided answering David’s question: who throws stones at women who worship at the Western Wall? Who spits at Christian worshippers in the Old City?
First, you are a troll
Second, you didn't answer David's question. I wonder why?
Israel is committing a genocide.
Israel has killed hundreds of thousands.
Israel bombs hospitals, schools and refugees camps.
Israel is a safe haven for pedophiles.
Israelis have been founding raping Ukrainian refugees.
IDF soldiers have been documented SAing Palestinian detainees.
Israel...well, look up what they did to Ethiopian Jews.
But you don't care about any of these because these are white people doing it against non-white people.
You're a racist colonialist and you're trying to project your racism onto everyone else.
Go fuck yourself.
I love sarcasm and parody accounts...especially the way you misspelled fascist (just like RWNJ do!) Awesome work! Good job!
🤡
The side you're supporting is a ethnonationalist death cult and an actual apartheid state.
STFU
Ssshhh.. let them steep, stew, rant, and brood. We live rent free in their inconsequential impotent little heads, and I enjoy their rants. We're a nation with megatonnage on tap, and we'll do what we like.
Thanks, Manders. No matter how articulately I explain my position, the trolls always come.
I just reported him as spam😁 I already blocked him a while ago.
Hilarious. Like you know anything about Israel or Israeli politics. LOL. You morons just spout labels and slogans because you don't know any facts.. Y'all are the worst kind of ignoramuses -- the arrogant kind.
OK poseur. Not googling.
You say the Israeli government is fascist (like you even know what the word actually means), then go ahead genius:
* Tell me which parties make up the current Israeli government and their political platforms?
* Too hard? Just tell me the names of the parties?
* Too hard? just tell me the number of parties in the current Knesset. Not the names, just how many - 2? 5? 20?
* Too hard? How juat tell me how many seats there are in the Knesset.
See what i mean. I know, i know, facts are HAAARRRDDD.
Y'all are jokes. Your opinions are jokes. Y'all are all so pathetic.
Know that your ignorance kills. Not that you care or give two shits about Palestinians. You just want to virtue signal to your fake friends on the Internet. Look at me. Look at me!!!!!
Free Palestine from Hamas and ignorant asshole poseurs like you.
Troll
Well argued. Very persuasive. I guess you also know no actual facts.
Your one word response definitely proves that I- not you - am a troll. LOL.
Literally every time I see you, you always fail to provide facts.
STFU troll
First, I find it utterly bizarre that you seem to think people need to know the inner workings of the Israeli government to have an opinion on it. Well then, do you know the inner workings of the Russian government? If not, why should we care about your opinion? Were you even aware there are other Palestinian groups besides Hamas? If not, why should we care about your opinion? Do you see why this is absurd?
Second, I find it interesting/hilarious that you're accusing the people who are against genocide of "not caring", meanwhile you're in favor of genocide.
Third: "Y'all are jokes. Your opinions are jokes. Y'all are all so pathetic. Know that your ignorance kills. Not that you care or give two shits about Palestinians. You just want to virtue signal to your fake friends on the Internet. Look at me. Look at me!!!!!"
Hilarious projection
Fourth: "Free Palestine from Hamas"
This is just cover for you to support killing everyone in Gaza and you know it.
Fifth: "I know, i know, facts are HAAARRRDDD."
Is that why you never present any? Or respond to any?
Was my comment removed?
No.
Good. Why do I not see it? This discussion is lively with the trolls.
All good!
You been the bad guy for a while
Secularism leads to an unhinged rules based order where the only law is 'might is right' and the ultimate outcome of such an order is death, destruction and chaos - usually intentional