Zelensky looked terrified during that whole visit. The neonazis who control Ukraine will get rid of him if he can't keep the US money and arms flowing into Ukraine. I think that's why he overplayed his hand w/ Trump.
It's pretty clear he's not in full control of the Ukrainian Army. Amongst other reasons, I believe if he accepts a ceasefire, he'll be deposed, killed, etc.
I appreciate your perspective and the new information (new nazis! Ugh) … and I appreciate the new lens it gives me. My grandfather was conscripted in Estonia more than 100 years ago, and managed to escape from a firing squad. My grandmother hid in a dirt hole. So, I’m still going to have to stand with Ukraine. 🇪🇪🇺🇦
I think it's important to frame wars like this as important outside of which side "wins" or "loses." The U.S. has "lost" many wars but it helped to bolster the military industrial complex and fossil fuel interests every. Single. Time. This is not just Trump's doing, he's just accelerating trends and saying all of the quiet parts loud about empire.
Thank you Joe. Really timely that you published this article today. After jumping on the the Ra-Ra Ukraine Zelenskyy band wagon, I had an interesting encounter with the fill-in postal carrier here. Turns out he's from the Ukraine. I said I was sorry about what is happening in his country, he thanked me and then went on to say that he thinks "Trump is right." and that he doesn't trust Zelenskyy, and many of his people don't and think "he should be replaced" because he can't "show where a lot of the money he was given, went." etc. etc. He also said he has been in this country for thirty years now, longer than he was in Ukraine. The conversation ended shortly after that and we went our separate ways, in more ways than one. Feel free to share any thoughts on this.
That's very interesting! I'm not an expert on this, so take my words with a grain of salt, but I remember hearing about a lot of public distrust following the Euromaidan protests in 2013. The pro-Russian president was ousted, and oligarchical forces filled the gap. I'm not surprised to hear a Ukrainian is somewhat distrustful of Zelenskyy, who rose to power after that. That said, I'd be extremely hesitant to change leaders mid-war.
Ah, I see. Yes, and changing leaders mid-war totally works in trump-putin's favor. This guy I talked with did say he wanted Ukraine separate from Russia. That was a real baffling moment for me, 'cause I didn't get how he could still like trump or believe that Ukraine would not get swallowed up.
When Russia invaded in 2022, it was to intervene in an 8-year civil war in the Donbas. Do you support the Donbas people's right to defend themselves against the Ukrainian Banderites, aka neonazis?
How about the 14,000 dead from Ukrainian neonazi militias' attacks on the ethnic Russians in Donbas from 2014 to 2022, breaking Minsk agreements and then the 2019 ceasefire? Just a pretext? And the same for Ukraine's blanket bans in the Donbas and other ethnoRussian areas of eastern Ukraine on using Russian language, while shutting down Russian-language media and the Russian Orthodox church?
They “ambushed” Zelensky by making him insult Trump, Vance, the US and the US public? They must have mind control powers.
Watch the whole thing and you will see a patient Trump and Vance who expected Zelensky had come there to sign a deal. Instead he decided to lecture them on live TV and tried to renegotiate. It was a very stupid move and Zelensky failed his country. The US public voted for a quick end to this war. Sure the neocon uniparty across the West wants the war to continue. That’s why they keep getting voted out by the people.
I’ve watched the whole thing. While that “ambush” was a small part of the whole meeting, Zelensky’s behavior is justified and I don’t recall any insults to America? Or even Trump or Vance.
When it got “heated” Trump (or Vance, forgot) had said something insinuating Putin wasn’t the one who started all of this.
I imagine throughout the whole ordeal Zelensky was tired of the beating around the bush as to why they were all there in the first place. And I’m sure he heard beforehand that Trump said Ukraine started it but still kept his composure in a second language. A reporter asked a good question when it came to Putin, and Trump shut her up saying “oh you work for CNN, you won’t be there long”, even Zelensky said in the back “that’s a good question”
That “deal” was some shit to him, and he’s always said thank you to what America has sent/done.
Zelensky was openly critical of Trump’s negotiating approach and implied he was naive to trust Putin. Which is the same as saying Zelensky refuses to negotiate at all - which is his long standing position. He wants the US to win his war for him so he never has to negotiate. Well Trump was elected to stop the war so he called BS on Zelensky’s entitled whining. Zelensky’s open insults include not wearing a suit (which he somehow managed to remember do when visiting Netanyahu), calling Vance “JD” rather than “Mr Vice President”, and then calling Vance a “fucking bitch” in Russian (his native language) under his breath.
This all besides the insult of coming to the Oval Office under the false pretence of signing the deal, then using the media opportunity to lecture and berate the US President and Vice-President and try to renegotiate the deal in real time on live TV. You could not imagine a more insulting, amateurish performance from an alleged leader.
Overall, I share your view about US foreign policy, and about military solutions in general. But I think Ukraine is an unusual situation because they are dealing with a powerful and imperial militarist actor on the other side of the equation, and not one that is acting defensively. Yes, they say they are acting defensively, but this is false. Russia will act offensively, and they will take territory very brutally, and crush the people who live in those places in unthinkable ways—and the lies are even more brazen than even the lies the US tells. It’s grim for the people who live in the places Russia decides it wants, and it doesn’t improve for them. Most of the times the US intervenes it’s either just some kind of clusterfuck clash between different actors and we can do not good at all, or we were weighing in to win the Cold War, and harming people’s desire for self-rule. This time the vast majority of the Ukrainians want self-rule and we are assisting them against another military which would like to deprive them of it. I agree it’s disturbing that there are Ukrainian Nazis but I don’t think that cancels out the fact that most Ukrainians aren’t Nazis, and they are at risk of being permanently subject to a powerful country that will only make their lives worse, and they don’t want that. The US didn’t start the conflict. The US doesn’t benefit directly from the conflict, only indirectly in the sense that it has allies that don’t want an aggressive country to threaten them constantly. That Ukraine has some Nazis doesn’t alter the fact that Russia is aggressive and militarist and a threat to other countries that don’t want to be under their control or live in fear of them.
Explain for us Joe, why Zelensky wears a suit when he goes to see Netanyahu? Why is the US further down the pecking order of basic courtesy than Israel?
This is why there is no effective opposition in the US. Unable to deploy more than emotion and namecalling. The people deserve better. For now this is all they get. When will an effective opposition arise? At this rate,never.
Do you not ever ask yourselves “how come I’m a cheerleader for the CIA, the arms companies, 98% of Congress, Dick Cheney and John Bolton?” Doesn’t that cast of warmongers give you just a hint that you might be on the wrong side of this issue?
Since when did the so-called “left” become the party of never-ending war?
I though this was sarcasm, but no I think it's real. Trump likes Putin and wants him to win the proxy war the US (including Trump 1.0) set up to weaken Russia using Ukraine? If he wanted to stop it he would stop funding it, whatever the blowback, which he hasn't. He wants the EU to take it over and pay for it. He wants to blame Kiev for starting it. He wants people to think what you think.
Zelensky was openly critical of Trump’s negotiating approach and implied he was naive to trust Putin. Which is the same as saying Zelensky refuses to negotiate at all - which is his long standing position. He wants the US to win his war for him so he never has to negotiate. Well Trump was elected to stop the war so he called BS on Zelensky’s entitled whining. Zelensky’s open insults include not wearing a suit (which he somehow managed to remember do when visiting Netanyahu), calling Vance “JD” rather than “Mr Vice President”, and then calling Vance a “fucking bitch” in Russian (his native language) under his breath.
This all besides the insult of coming to the Oval Office under the false pretence of signing the deal, then using the media opportunity to lecture and berate the US President and Vice-President and try to renegotiate the deal in real time on live TV. You could not imagine a more insulting, amateurish performance from an alleged leader.
This is why there is no effective opposition in the US. Unable to deploy more than emotion and namecalling. The people deserve better. For now this is all they get. When will an effective opposition arise? At this rate,never.
And in case you haven’t noticed, I’m laughing. Zelensky is a war-whore for the CIA and he got slapped.
Do you not ever ask yourself “how come I’m a cheerleader for the CIA, the arms companies, 98% of Congress, Dick Cheney and John Bolton?” Doesn’t that cast of warmongers give you just a hint that you might be on the wrong side of this issue?
Since when did the so-called “left” become the party of never-ending war?
I’m not melting down. I’m explaining. You know, with facts? You are name calling and emotionalising. That’s not going to get you or your readers anywhere except that smug self-righteous feeling you get when you lose an election.
Wow, his clothing… his use of the VP’s name…expressing his frustration… what excellent reasons to let Putin continue to slaughter the people he was elected to protect. Grow tf up.
Yes and they tolerated that but not Zelensky arriving on false pretences with no intention to agree a deal or negotiate with Russia in any way, just demanding endless free resources off the US until he wins or the last Ukrainian is dead - the people Zelensky was “elected to protect”. Back when they still had elections in Ukraine, when opposition parties weren’t banned, when not so many opposition MPs were in Zelensky’s jails, when he hadn’t yet killed US citizens in those jails, and hadn’t seized control of the main church in Ukraine. But he had already banned Russian (his own language).
A couple of great ways Zelensky could have helped the people he was elected to protect:
- actually deliver on the peace platform he promised in order to get elected, instead of bowing to Ukrainian Nazis and doing a 180 on it as soon as he was elected
- not banned all opposition parties and not banned the majority church in Ukraine
- not arrested his political opponents
- not sold most of his country’s assets to BlackRock etc
- not banned Russian
- not slaughtered Russian civilians for ten years in the eastern regions of Ukraine
- not refused to even negotiate with Russia
- not torn up multiple peace deals
- not rejected the Instanbul peace agreement after he had already agreed it, just because Biden sent Boris Johnson to tell him not to
- not credulously believed Biden’s false promises of “whatever it takes for as long as it takes”
Any of these things would have averted the slaughter of his people. Instead he chose to increase the slaughter at every opportunity. His only remaining option is to start slaughtering his own kids. And that’s on him.
These are all FACTS. I can tell you prefer emotions. Above all else it is emotions that are getting the Ukrainians slaughtered. Zelensky would do better for his people if he would start dealing with facts. And so would you.
Zelensky looked terrified during that whole visit. The neonazis who control Ukraine will get rid of him if he can't keep the US money and arms flowing into Ukraine. I think that's why he overplayed his hand w/ Trump.
It's pretty clear he's not in full control of the Ukrainian Army. Amongst other reasons, I believe if he accepts a ceasefire, he'll be deposed, killed, etc.
That was also the feeling I got from his body language.
I appreciate your perspective and the new information (new nazis! Ugh) … and I appreciate the new lens it gives me. My grandfather was conscripted in Estonia more than 100 years ago, and managed to escape from a firing squad. My grandmother hid in a dirt hole. So, I’m still going to have to stand with Ukraine. 🇪🇪🇺🇦
I don't blame you!
I just want to say, I’m really enjoying all of your writing!
I think it's important to frame wars like this as important outside of which side "wins" or "loses." The U.S. has "lost" many wars but it helped to bolster the military industrial complex and fossil fuel interests every. Single. Time. This is not just Trump's doing, he's just accelerating trends and saying all of the quiet parts loud about empire.
Well put!
Thank you Joe. Really timely that you published this article today. After jumping on the the Ra-Ra Ukraine Zelenskyy band wagon, I had an interesting encounter with the fill-in postal carrier here. Turns out he's from the Ukraine. I said I was sorry about what is happening in his country, he thanked me and then went on to say that he thinks "Trump is right." and that he doesn't trust Zelenskyy, and many of his people don't and think "he should be replaced" because he can't "show where a lot of the money he was given, went." etc. etc. He also said he has been in this country for thirty years now, longer than he was in Ukraine. The conversation ended shortly after that and we went our separate ways, in more ways than one. Feel free to share any thoughts on this.
That's very interesting! I'm not an expert on this, so take my words with a grain of salt, but I remember hearing about a lot of public distrust following the Euromaidan protests in 2013. The pro-Russian president was ousted, and oligarchical forces filled the gap. I'm not surprised to hear a Ukrainian is somewhat distrustful of Zelenskyy, who rose to power after that. That said, I'd be extremely hesitant to change leaders mid-war.
Ah, I see. Yes, and changing leaders mid-war totally works in trump-putin's favor. This guy I talked with did say he wanted Ukraine separate from Russia. That was a real baffling moment for me, 'cause I didn't get how he could still like trump or believe that Ukraine would not get swallowed up.
Thank you!!
I really appreciate you sharing this perspective; it was very eye-opening and educational.
I'm glad it helped!
It felt to me like it was a set up to justify withholding aid for Ukraine. It is all so confusing. thanks for helping me stay informed
Of course!
When Russia invaded in 2022, it was to intervene in an 8-year civil war in the Donbas. Do you support the Donbas people's right to defend themselves against the Ukrainian Banderites, aka neonazis?
I reject that framing. Putin was clear in his pre-war 2022 speech that he believes Ukraine is part of Russia. The Donbas was a pretext.
How about the 14,000 dead from Ukrainian neonazi militias' attacks on the ethnic Russians in Donbas from 2014 to 2022, breaking Minsk agreements and then the 2019 ceasefire? Just a pretext? And the same for Ukraine's blanket bans in the Donbas and other ethnoRussian areas of eastern Ukraine on using Russian language, while shutting down Russian-language media and the Russian Orthodox church?
Can you cite your sources?
They “ambushed” Zelensky by making him insult Trump, Vance, the US and the US public? They must have mind control powers.
Watch the whole thing and you will see a patient Trump and Vance who expected Zelensky had come there to sign a deal. Instead he decided to lecture them on live TV and tried to renegotiate. It was a very stupid move and Zelensky failed his country. The US public voted for a quick end to this war. Sure the neocon uniparty across the West wants the war to continue. That’s why they keep getting voted out by the people.
God help us the maga trolls found substack
We were here LONG before all your shows and columns got cancelled and you had to carpetbag over here.
So you're admitting you're a troll?
See if the left was a little bit smart like you, they might have a chance of regaining power.
I’ve watched the whole thing. While that “ambush” was a small part of the whole meeting, Zelensky’s behavior is justified and I don’t recall any insults to America? Or even Trump or Vance.
When it got “heated” Trump (or Vance, forgot) had said something insinuating Putin wasn’t the one who started all of this.
I imagine throughout the whole ordeal Zelensky was tired of the beating around the bush as to why they were all there in the first place. And I’m sure he heard beforehand that Trump said Ukraine started it but still kept his composure in a second language. A reporter asked a good question when it came to Putin, and Trump shut her up saying “oh you work for CNN, you won’t be there long”, even Zelensky said in the back “that’s a good question”
That “deal” was some shit to him, and he’s always said thank you to what America has sent/done.
Zelensky was openly critical of Trump’s negotiating approach and implied he was naive to trust Putin. Which is the same as saying Zelensky refuses to negotiate at all - which is his long standing position. He wants the US to win his war for him so he never has to negotiate. Well Trump was elected to stop the war so he called BS on Zelensky’s entitled whining. Zelensky’s open insults include not wearing a suit (which he somehow managed to remember do when visiting Netanyahu), calling Vance “JD” rather than “Mr Vice President”, and then calling Vance a “fucking bitch” in Russian (his native language) under his breath.
This all besides the insult of coming to the Oval Office under the false pretence of signing the deal, then using the media opportunity to lecture and berate the US President and Vice-President and try to renegotiate the deal in real time on live TV. You could not imagine a more insulting, amateurish performance from an alleged leader.
Overall, I share your view about US foreign policy, and about military solutions in general. But I think Ukraine is an unusual situation because they are dealing with a powerful and imperial militarist actor on the other side of the equation, and not one that is acting defensively. Yes, they say they are acting defensively, but this is false. Russia will act offensively, and they will take territory very brutally, and crush the people who live in those places in unthinkable ways—and the lies are even more brazen than even the lies the US tells. It’s grim for the people who live in the places Russia decides it wants, and it doesn’t improve for them. Most of the times the US intervenes it’s either just some kind of clusterfuck clash between different actors and we can do not good at all, or we were weighing in to win the Cold War, and harming people’s desire for self-rule. This time the vast majority of the Ukrainians want self-rule and we are assisting them against another military which would like to deprive them of it. I agree it’s disturbing that there are Ukrainian Nazis but I don’t think that cancels out the fact that most Ukrainians aren’t Nazis, and they are at risk of being permanently subject to a powerful country that will only make their lives worse, and they don’t want that. The US didn’t start the conflict. The US doesn’t benefit directly from the conflict, only indirectly in the sense that it has allies that don’t want an aggressive country to threaten them constantly. That Ukraine has some Nazis doesn’t alter the fact that Russia is aggressive and militarist and a threat to other countries that don’t want to be under their control or live in fear of them.
Explain for us Joe, why Zelensky wears a suit when he goes to see Netanyahu? Why is the US further down the pecking order of basic courtesy than Israel?
This is why there is no effective opposition in the US. Unable to deploy more than emotion and namecalling. The people deserve better. For now this is all they get. When will an effective opposition arise? At this rate,never.
Do you not ever ask yourselves “how come I’m a cheerleader for the CIA, the arms companies, 98% of Congress, Dick Cheney and John Bolton?” Doesn’t that cast of warmongers give you just a hint that you might be on the wrong side of this issue?
Since when did the so-called “left” become the party of never-ending war?
I though this was sarcasm, but no I think it's real. Trump likes Putin and wants him to win the proxy war the US (including Trump 1.0) set up to weaken Russia using Ukraine? If he wanted to stop it he would stop funding it, whatever the blowback, which he hasn't. He wants the EU to take it over and pay for it. He wants to blame Kiev for starting it. He wants people to think what you think.
Joe, I noticed that Ciatation 14 has an article from 2014, so it might be outdated; Are you able to replace it with a more recent, relevant article?
I believe citation 14 goes here, a 2022 article. Was there a different one? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment
Joe?
Shit, I meant 15
Zelensky was openly critical of Trump’s negotiating approach and implied he was naive to trust Putin. Which is the same as saying Zelensky refuses to negotiate at all - which is his long standing position. He wants the US to win his war for him so he never has to negotiate. Well Trump was elected to stop the war so he called BS on Zelensky’s entitled whining. Zelensky’s open insults include not wearing a suit (which he somehow managed to remember do when visiting Netanyahu), calling Vance “JD” rather than “Mr Vice President”, and then calling Vance a “fucking bitch” in Russian (his native language) under his breath.
This all besides the insult of coming to the Oval Office under the false pretence of signing the deal, then using the media opportunity to lecture and berate the US President and Vice-President and try to renegotiate the deal in real time on live TV. You could not imagine a more insulting, amateurish performance from an alleged leader.
Well, JD is a giant bitch so that's great to hear. I also don't give a shit about anything else you said. Cry harder.
This is why there is no effective opposition in the US. Unable to deploy more than emotion and namecalling. The people deserve better. For now this is all they get. When will an effective opposition arise? At this rate,never.
And in case you haven’t noticed, I’m laughing. Zelensky is a war-whore for the CIA and he got slapped.
Do you not ever ask yourself “how come I’m a cheerleader for the CIA, the arms companies, 98% of Congress, Dick Cheney and John Bolton?” Doesn’t that cast of warmongers give you just a hint that you might be on the wrong side of this issue?
Since when did the so-called “left” become the party of never-ending war?
You, melting down because someone didn't mean the dress code: Other people are too emotional
I’m not melting down. I’m explaining. You know, with facts? You are name calling and emotionalising. That’s not going to get you or your readers anywhere except that smug self-righteous feeling you get when you lose an election.
Wow, his clothing… his use of the VP’s name…expressing his frustration… what excellent reasons to let Putin continue to slaughter the people he was elected to protect. Grow tf up.
Yes and they tolerated that but not Zelensky arriving on false pretences with no intention to agree a deal or negotiate with Russia in any way, just demanding endless free resources off the US until he wins or the last Ukrainian is dead - the people Zelensky was “elected to protect”. Back when they still had elections in Ukraine, when opposition parties weren’t banned, when not so many opposition MPs were in Zelensky’s jails, when he hadn’t yet killed US citizens in those jails, and hadn’t seized control of the main church in Ukraine. But he had already banned Russian (his own language).
A couple of great ways Zelensky could have helped the people he was elected to protect:
- actually deliver on the peace platform he promised in order to get elected, instead of bowing to Ukrainian Nazis and doing a 180 on it as soon as he was elected
- not banned all opposition parties and not banned the majority church in Ukraine
- not arrested his political opponents
- not sold most of his country’s assets to BlackRock etc
- not banned Russian
- not slaughtered Russian civilians for ten years in the eastern regions of Ukraine
- not refused to even negotiate with Russia
- not torn up multiple peace deals
- not rejected the Instanbul peace agreement after he had already agreed it, just because Biden sent Boris Johnson to tell him not to
- not credulously believed Biden’s false promises of “whatever it takes for as long as it takes”
Any of these things would have averted the slaughter of his people. Instead he chose to increase the slaughter at every opportunity. His only remaining option is to start slaughtering his own kids. And that’s on him.
These are all FACTS. I can tell you prefer emotions. Above all else it is emotions that are getting the Ukrainians slaughtered. Zelensky would do better for his people if he would start dealing with facts. And so would you.
Wow, do you know what is inside everyone’s head? Or only Zelenskyy’s?
Do you ever make actual arguments or just sophomoric rhetorical devices?